Click above to listen in iTunes…
Jon Paramore:
What’s up everyone? This is Jon Paramore and you’re listening to The Liberating Contractor Podcast. I’ve spent the last 17 years growing and scaling contracting companies all across the United States. Now I’m on a mission to liberate as many contractors as I can by helping them to break free from the chaos by helping them build a company that supports the life they want to live.
Join me as I explain how some simple shifts and strategies are freeing contractors, and helping them to make more money than ever before. Sit back and relax and welcome to The Liberated Contractor Podcast.
Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to The Liberated Contractor Podcast. This is Jon Paramore here with Katie Martin and today we’re actually going to be talking about a topic that is very near and dear to our hearts. It’s something that we pride ourselves in. It’s something that we worked very, very hard to build and keep intact and we’re gonna…
Explain to you why it’s so important. And the topic that we’re working through today is culture building. And it’s probably–if not the number one–definitely in the top five things that keep guys really from building the teams that they desire from attracting the clients that they really want to work with and it’s something that we really enjoy.
We talk to people all the time and they say things to us like, ‘hey, how do I build a culture?’
What is the culture, how do we work through it, how do we develop it? So we’re going to cover all the different facets and different areas of culture building and what that looks like.
So one question right out of the gate that I’ll ask you is, when we had incredible cultures and the cultures were great and when we had cultures that we really were struggling with and we didn’t really understand the difference of how to build a great culture and why everything seemed so miserable.
Just talk to them a little bit about the difference of the two and how we were able to overcome it.
Katy Martin:
So the two biggest things that I was thinking of is people that really don’t know about what a culture is. It’s like you come to work to do a job and everything’s black and white. Everything, there’s a rule, there’s a consequence. You come in, you do a job. If you don’t do it well, there’s a consequence. If you do it well, maybe there’s a reward and it’s super black and white culture brings color into all of that.
Meaning that there’s high reward, there are things that are fun, people enjoy coming to work. There’s something more than just the job, it’s this all-encompassing feel throughout the company.
There’s a lot of energy and we’ve had companies where the culture wasn’t great or you went through times where the culture wasn’t great. And so then you really have to think about what can we do to just improve the environment and there’s so many different ways to do that, which we’ll talk about. But those are the two biggest differences that I…
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. So, one thing I remember when I was younger and I was working in, I had jobs, you know, coming out of college and at the beginning, one thing I remember is the drastic difference–like night and day difference–between a good and a bad culture. There really isn’t any gray. Like, I think the culture is really, really great and some areas are really, really bad.
There’s really just nothing in between. And so the massive difference that I really understood or came to kind of feel, was that feeling of getting up in the morning and wanting to go into that place. That to me was the symbol of a good culture.
I knew the people there were going to be in good moods or they were at least, you know, even if they were a little crabby, they weren’t going to be fighting to get into a good mood.
The environment had this feel like there was good music playing, there were pleasant smells, and I know we’re going to laugh about it, but there’s something to be said for that. Right? So for me that good culture feeling like even if I was not in a great mood, it took my energy level and totally shifted it, right?
I was around people that were infectious. They were all working to create something bigger, like they were all working on a centralized mission. And that’s what felt really, really good. And the opposite of that was walking into a culture where the leader or the owner… nothing you could do would please that person. Everything seemed wrong. Everything, you know, seemed difficult.
They were always finding the problem and sticking their finger in the problem and not supporting the people that were there.
And you and I were a part of that for a period of time. I won’t name names or put people out on the airwaves or any of that stuff, but you and I have witnessed that, I think, on a couple of occasions, where there was just… the owner or the leadership was just not happy with themselves or whatever–which we’re going to talk about in this culture stuff–and it just infected the entire team.
So, you know, in your own words, like, you’ve been part of good and bad cultures so tell us and tell everybody listening, what do you feel like is the difference between the two?
Katy Martin:
Well, there’s one thing that you touched on and it immediately brought this picture to my head and it’s, (and we’ve talked about this before) like everybody being on a ship and you’re unclear of the destination of where the ship is going and everybody’s paddling a different direction.
So, when you have that constant tension that just continues to breed the poor culture or no culture at all, everybody is there for their own purpose, and their own gain, they’re there to do a job.
They’re there to make money. There’s nothing more. So when people are bought into whatever the vision is of that person in that, when that leader of the organization is super, super clear of ‘this is the direction that we’re going. I love all of you and I want you to come with me. If you don’t want to come with me, that’s fine. But if you’re on this boat, we’re all paddling this.’
Katy Martin:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that. So let’s get into like, how do you build a clear, how do you build a legit, a rock solid culture? I think the first thing that you’re talking about, you’re already hitting on the point is there’s got to be a clear directive. There’s got to be a legit vision.
Like where are we going? Right.
And it’s funny, it’s funny and it’s kind of sad at the same time, but when people reach out to us and they say, ‘I’m really struggling to hire really good people.’ One of the first questions that we asked them is ‘what’s the purpose?’
Like, where are you going? Where is the company headed, what is the culture like? Because I think sometimes people look at a job and they take the human element out of the job and they say, ‘well I have a list of things that I want someone to do.
I just need to go find somebody to do these things.’ But then they take the human part out of it. It’s like these people are going to be spending a good portion of their life with you. They’re going to be spending at least eight hours a day with you, maybe more if they actually liked the culture.
You have to have something bigger here that they can work toward or they’ll just check out mentally, physically, emotionally, all that stuff. So talk to me, you know, like for you in particular, you’ve worked in a couple of different environments and things like that.
What’s the difference between working for someone, or with someone, that has clear vision, and working with someone or for someone who has no idea where things are going.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, I mean you don’t really feel when the person really has no idea where they’re going, you don’t really feel confident that it’s like I’m contributing to something.
Yeah. So I think and also the appeal of–and I guess size is kind of irrelevant–but smaller to medium size businesses or maybe privately-owned businesses where you feel like you’re actually building something.
Like, when you can come in and be part of an organization and sometimes these contracting companies , when you joined them, when they’re at a one to $3,000,000 company and then you’re on board and can get them and you’re part of getting them to that $10,000,000 a year organization…
People buy into that because they can see the difference. It’s about seeing the difference that what you do makes a difference, that you’re just not a cog in a giant machine that really doesn’t care. So that’s what always got me excited about the type of work that we did because we were always building something.
Katy Martin:
Exactly. Yeah. And so once we, (let’s just take the last contracting company that we owned and worked in) once we established the purpose and the vision of where it was going and we started adding people that totally bought in to that, they were all in. What did that culture feel like?
Oh, like everybody. And it was almost like the entire place moved as a unit. Like things just, it just moves, stuff just moved.
So you know, the sales team moved as a group. They produced as a group. They produced well. The internal team, they, I mean it’s not even like putting your head down and doing your job, but you just focused.
You were super focused and did it really well because you’re trying to help everybody else succeed. Exactly.
And when everybody cares about everyone else and you have that constant battle with some companies that the culture is not, or it feels a little rocky where your field team is fighting with your internal team and all that’s doing is slowing things down.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. And it’s like tearing the culture apart. There’s just difference of opinions and vision that they’re all moving in different directions of tearing everything apart. One thing that a mentor told me, not too long ago, was I think a lot of times, especially with owners, we tend to be visionaries.
We tend to be dominant. We tend to be, ‘hey, this is where I’m headed.’ And I think one of the biggest things that everybody really needs to understand is there’s also some importance and there was some, some value to making sure that when you start to build a team, not only do they know what you’re trying to do, but they also were allowed to give input on when they see things that could be done differently or better that could actually improve where you’re headed.
And I think one of the greatest lessons that I learned is, we used to walk up a, several years ago, we used to walk up and we would put a number on a board and would say, ‘okay, this is for the year, this is where we want to go.’ But then some people on the team would say, ‘ah, that seems aggressive. Like, what if we dialed that back a little bit?’
And for me as an owner, at first it was frustrating. It was like, ‘well, if we dial it back then I’m not going to hit the targets that I’m really after to achieve.’ But meanwhile, I wasn’t taken into consideration, like the feeling of the people who actually had to do the work to get the majority of the stuff to the target.
And so what I learned, not too long ago from talking to this mentor was, what if everybody contributed to that number?
What if everybody said, ‘hey, instead of doing 2 million or 3 million or $4 million or 5 million this year, we all feel like that we could hit three.’ So you make three the target because everybody feels like they can definitely get there.
But then when you hit three, you celebrate and push everybody to that next level. So for you, when you’re thinking about culture and direction and whatever…
What do you feel from a collaboration standpoint? What’s the value in it for you? Like, if you can collaborate and you can have input and you can help steer the ship in the right direction… How does that change your attitude on how you show up and do your work every day?
Katy Martin:
Well, it’s rewarding at the end of the day, but one thing that I want to touch on… Part of that is that when, whatever the number is, is that the leadership is as clear on why the number is important and why the team’s numbers are important.
Like how is that going to affect everybody else? So if you’re in a support person, you know, we all know that a salesperson or sales professional… their income is controlled by themselves. So if we get this company from 1 million to 3 million, how does that impact the internal staff? Exactly.
So not necessarily saying we’ll pay you more money, but there’s gotta be something.
It’s got to be something tied to like, ‘Hey, great, we got there. Like, is there something more than just the high five, like we’re already excited about the high five, but how is it going to impact everybody on a personal level?’
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. And I think the important part too, especially for those of you listening that might be one-man shows or you’ve got a smaller team as you start adding people to your team, as you start considering , ‘Hey, I’m going to start growing my team and I’m going to start building this and whatever the fundamental basics of culture really, really need to be in place.’
Like, what are you willing to sacrifice? What are you willing to tolerate?
You know… What do the people look like and feel like? And I think most of the time, and I’m definitely guilty of this, we’re definitely guilty of this…
You people hire too quickly, they bring on people too quickly and then they find out once they’re in there, they don’t align with the culture. And then they have to basically get rid of like, you know, they’ve invested into these people.
They put energy into these people, then they have to turn around and break them loose.
So one thing that I’ll say was a very, very important part and is a very important part of even what we’re doing right now is identifying the people that you like the personality types, the leadership type, the overall type of person that you want in the company that’s going to end up shaping the culture.
And I think really no matter what size company you are, the first few people that you hire and that build the foundation, are the ones that shape the core of the culture and then the people that you hire as you go, it transitions and develops and evolves and all that fun stuff.
But I mean even from like an operation side from a, you know, a bookkeeping, like it doesn’t really matter the position it’s going to shape the culture one way or another.
I don’t know… what do you feel–like from a cultural standpoint–what do you feel is like, you know, if you were going to take your opinion or your experience and stake into one thing, what do you feel must be present in order to build that rock solid culture?
What’s that thing? I’ll put her on the spot.
Katy Martin:
Put me on the spot. Yeah. I would say like where everybody is very self accountable, where you feel that amongst–and I… maybe that’s a personality trait that you’re looking for that individuals possess–but just a big one though. But, accountability is huge. So where–and not that you’re holding people accountable–but you have people that love to show up and just love what they do.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. So expand on that. So like if you go hire people that are, like, the ones that always have to be followed up with and the ones that you like… we’ve done that, right? We’ve seen that where it’s like, ‘Hey, are you doing your job? Hey, are you going to show up? Hey, are you whatever? Like what does that do to everything–not just the culture, but emotionally to the people trying to…
Katy Martin:
Nobody wants… they feel like they’re micromanaged and loves to throw that term around like, ‘I don’t like being micromanaged.’ Well, I mean then do you know what you agreed to do? So having all of those things in place, having agreements in place for everybody that you know, and just agreements on what that entails and that it’s in alignment with what the bigger picture is because if it’s not, it’s just a constant struggle.
So. And every company goes through this. So one question that I was going to ask you, because we’ve worked with clients at this point, and even you’ve been in this position where a business–take a comedy that’s been in business for 10 years, maybe 15 years–and you’re going to go through these hills and valleys and just see your company culture may not be solidified where it is right now.
And that’s okay because it can be corrected. So what are two or three key things that I’m at as a business owner who’s been in it for years and years?
Do you feel like hey can say, ‘oh, I identify that this is a culture problem and we should look into, correct against.’
Jon Paramore:
I’ll tell you right out of the gate, first of all, if you’re a leader, you’re in a management role, you’re in leadership role, you’re in an ownership role and you’re listening to this. You’re already creating a culture.
Like your behavior sets the culture, how you show if you’re in any type of leadership position… your behavior sets the culture.
How you show up is how the rest of your team is showing up because your team, you… A great person, said this to me one time, ‘you cannot lead past your capacity to lead yourself…’
It’s just not possible. So one of the things that, you know, as a direct response to the question you’re asking, you as the leader, you’ve got to show up and set the tone of how you want the culture to go.
Like, and if you want it to be relaxed, then show up in flip flops and Tommy Bahama shirts and be relaxed. Like that’s okay. Right?
I’m not here to judge your culture. I’m just here to tell you however you decide to show up every day. I wear smash here.
I would like nothing more than to have an entire group of people that come in here and who are so bought into what we’re doing that they show up in smash gear every day. Like they’re there, they’re out on vacation and they’re wearing smash gear. Like that’s the kind of stuff that’s a culture, that’s a culture. That’s like a lifestyle. It’s like… becoming who they are.
They breathe it and bleed it like shit. People do that with sports teams. Do you think about it? We’re in St Louis. People wear St Louis Blues gear. I mean those people, that freaking team hasn’t won a Stanley Cup in God knows how long… if ever.
Right. Sorry, I’m not a Blues fan, so for those of you who are Blues fans, I’m sorry that sports sucks balls, but the reality is like there’s people walking around in sports and Blues gear and they’ve never ever won, but the culture is what they love.
It doesn’t matter like, professional sports arethe greatest demonstration of culture, I think in modern history where we are today because the teams that win have a winning culture. The teams that lose typically are full of guys trying to outperform for themselves… outperform one another. There’s no comradery there. All these elements are missing. Right?
But it’s like you have to… I think there’s… I don’t even mind saying it in the contracting world… there’s probably like three or four guys right now that really, really stick out.
You and I have seen quite a few of them were people are so bought into the culture that they’re hashtagging like, you know, the company name and the company culture and what they stand for and shit like that.
And it just breeds this energy. Like, I mean it’s just incredible. And, so that’s what we’re talking about. And, the reality is: when you invest and you guys build this culture that we’re talking about, the really cool part about building a culture that we’re talking about is then people are like, ‘hey, we want to come work for you.’
Like, it’s no more chase, it’s no more tugboat theory of go get good sales reps there in the market going, dude, how do we work for you? How do we work for you?
Like we want to be a part of that. How do we work for you? So I, you know, you guys just have to understand that how you show up and what you put into the market that you stand for is going to resonate with people.
It’s either going to resonate with the people who you don’t want in your environment or it’s going to resonate with the people who you want in your environment and either way it’s a choice you’re going to get to choose which of those people you decided to bring in and then that’s going to be the determining factor on what the culture ends up being. Right.
And you and I’ve seen that like there’s one particular guy that you and I interacted with for a really long time before we blocked him where he’s specifically on social media was like ‘I can’t find good sales reps. I just hired two; I fired two. Hire two, fire two… I just can’t find good sales reps. Right?
And you have a desk buddy? Yeah. Like, we would physically ask them and not to put them on the spot, but we were like, what’s the culture like?
He’s like, well, the culture is like I’m giving you an opportunity to show up and knock a door on giving you a job. Like that’s not a culture.
I mean it is, it’s a shitty culture, but nobody wants to work in that environment. Right?
Katy Martin:
What makes your company? That’s the deciding factor. Like we talked about. I’m like, they want to come work for you. What? What sets you apart from everybody else? That’s it. I mean how many thousands of contractors do we deal with it? They do the exact same thing. The same thing. They sell roofing, right? That’s it. Storm restoration work. I need some sales people. I have an office person there.
It’s the same thing. So unless you can confidently say… unless you can competently say ‘this is why this company is different, this is why I’m different.’ Not ‘you can come here and make a lot of money.’ Cool. I didn’t go anywhere. A lot of money. That doesn’t mean I want to stay there.
So. So what sets you apart? What sets you apart from everybody else that’s out there?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, and it… I was literally having a conversation with a guy last night that’s like, ‘I’m learning how to build funnels.’ It was a contractor, right? And in his message he was like, ‘it’s like I get free inspections. I, um, I’m a GAF certified. I’m a like…’ Like dude, listen, the thing that’s gonna set you apart–and not just with the funnel, with recruiting, with team building, with all these things–talk to these people about who you are. Who are you, who are you?
And then he’s like, ‘well I’m a Christian and I’m this…’ And I’m like, ‘I get that. Who are you? Like what’s the purpose of what you’re doing?’ Right. And then he was like, ‘holy cow, like, that’s totally different.’ And I’m like, ‘yeah,’ and, if you resonate with people on that level, that’s, that’s your culture.
You have to become that culture so that people go, if I Google ‘I need a new roof’ or ‘roofing contractors in St Louis’ or ‘roofing contractors in Texas’ or whatever… there’s a million people that are gonna pop up. All of them are gonna say the same thing. ‘We do this, we do this, we do this.’ They’re focused on what they do, but almost every single one of them, when you go to their websites are missing the ‘why.’ Like what’s the purpose behind who we are?
They’re like… I said before we started, there’s a couple, you know… like as soon as you go to their page you’re like damn, something’s different here. Right? It’s like pictures of all their guys and the trucks and them giving hugs to homeowners and you know, there’s like a real culture, right?
So you know, we can hammer on this for so long because we understand the importance of this stuff. Like, it’s just not possible for you guys listening to this podcast to attract the people that you really desire inside your company.
Unless you’re really, really bought in and focused in and building an ultra-powerful culture, it’s just not possible and the opposite of that ends up being this destructive thing that you’re incredibly frustrated with because you can’t seem to bring the right people in because you’re missing the purpose and the, and the culture and everything else behind it. Right?
Katy Martin:
I mean, I don’t care… totally talk about this forever… because then that totally leads into–which we’ll probably talk about another podcast–that difference between leadership and management, but honestly, when it comes to like… that’s the core of the company culture.
And we’re not saying like, if you have this fun, you know, definitely don’t take this to the extreme of, well, ‘let’s go get an office and put it on a slide and some swings and it will be and everybody will come work there.’ We’re just like ‘that’s added fun stuff that you can do.’ But even the company that has the best processes and procedures and everything’s documented… I mean, there’s importance to all of that.
We’ll get into that when we talk about systems and things, but even the ones that are spelled are most clear… if there’s not a purpose to why they’re coming there to do that, they’re just not going to do it and you’re going to end.
It’s not about, ‘hey, this job isn’t clear’ and it’s not about, ‘you’re going to be in that constant cycle of I just can’t find good people’ because that part’s not true. We know that that’s not true. So you’ve just got to resonate with people on a level to where they connect with you.
Like if I work for you, I need to connect with you to some level and I need to know that there’s open communication. I need to know that I’m going to get some sort of feedback, good, bad or indifferent, and those people just have to jive. Like you just have to connect on that deeper level.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. Right. And I totally agree and I think, you know… just look at some of the places that you guys know that are listening to this. Like Google, I mean that place, Google and Google’s culture.
Katy Martin:
Sure. Google’s off. Yeah. And their culture, and some of the things that they do to keep… and it’s some of the things you’d be surprised a little… Yeah, little stuff. It’s not like ‘hey we have the best 401k’ and ‘you guys got to get a little bit outside of the black and white.’ It’s cool when you have the black and white benefits and things that people are really looking for, but it’s the environment and some of the little things.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. And, and I’m not saying emulate a billion-dollar company because most of you guys listening to this probably don’t have that budget, but Katie’s talking about the little things, like, just go do some of the little things like… I’m just going to be honest with you guys right now and be super transparent. What are the things that we used to do in our contracting company? We call it fuck off Friday, right?
Like, seriously, we would all work until about noon and then we’d go out back and play wiffle ball.
We legitimately had a bar in the office…
They would pour drinks. You know, things like that. Now we never condoned anybody drinking and driving but at the same time, we’d started early enough in the day that by the time people were going to go… I mean, but the one thing that I really loved about that culture: people were staying until 8:00 at night to work and it wasn’t because I asked them to write, it’s like we created projects and things and we had deadlines and people were like, ‘we’re going to get it done.’
Like, ‘we’ll stay here and get it done.’ And that’s, that. That’s what I loved because the environment bred like nobody leaves until we get this thing done. And it wasn’t because there was like this hard fist style.
Like, everybody’s got to stay. And blah blah it was just like, ‘man, we love this place.’ Like ‘we got shit to do.’
Katy Martin:
So we’re gonna stay in and we rewarded well, you know, we rewarded well for performance, right? And you know… and when people… we said thank you. We said thank you. That… gosh, that’s a huge thing, man. You’d be so surprised.
Even if it is their job, just say thank you. That’s it. It’s so little.
Makes a huge difference. Gratitude and appreciation and feedback like those… if you could just reflect on where you’re at right now in your company and say, ‘where am I with showing gratitude, appreciation and what kind of communication I have with my team’ and if you could make the smallest adjustment, it makes a huge impact on your culture.
Jon Paramore:
That’s it. That’s it. And one final thing and we’re going to wrap up here is… you know… listen. I just want you guys to take an inventory on where your culture is right now. Let’s take an inventory of it to ask yourself: the people that I have around me right now, are they excited to be in this place because… I’m going to honestly give you, like, a real, raw dose of truth right here…
If you’re surrounded by a bunch of people that don’t seem very excited to come in and you don’t feel like coming in some days too, you have a culture problem. And the really great part about it is it’s not something you need to panic about. It’s something that can be adjusted relatively easily. Bring the team together, bring them together and ask them, ‘how do we build; how do we switch this culture?’
How do we switch this dynamic? How can we work together to build something in this place that everybody’s excited about to come in?
So listen, we greatly appreciate it. Every time you guys join us on a podcast, we’re incredibly appreciative for it. We hope you guys are getting i
ncredible value from this. You guys can find more information about us on our new Rhinobranded.com. You can also go to thesmashco.com. It’ll likely redirect you to rhinobranded.com. You guys can check us out on youtube. You can check us out on facebook. You can check us out on instagram.
We’ll make sure to start dropping some of the links into the podcast at the bottom as well when you guys can see this and log in. But for today, thanks for joining us on The Liberated Contractor Podcast… Jon Paramore, Katy Martin… We’ll catch you guys on the other side soon. Take care.
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of The Liberator Contractor. Please remember to subscribe and leave a review. Want us to cover a topic on air? Need some help and want to know how to find a resolution? Sent us an email at [email protected] and we’ll send you some gear if we use your question on here. This has been The Liberated Contractor Podcast.
