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What’s up everyone? This is Jon Paramore. You’re listening to The Liberated Contractor Podcast. I’ve spent the last 17 years growing and scaling contracting companies all across the United States.
Now I’m on a mission to liberate as many contractors as I can by helping them to break free from the chaos by helping them build a company that supports the life they want to live. Join me as I explained how some simple shifts and strategies are freeing contractors, and helping them make more money than ever before.
Sit back and relax…
Welcome to The Liberated Contractor Podcast…
Katy Martin:
Hello everybody and welcome to The Liberated Contractor Podcast. This is Katie Martin, along with Jon, and today’s episode… It’s actually perfect timing because it is now July. We are halfway through the year and some of you have been working a solid six months and are halfway through your season and you’re probably exhausted.
So today we are talking about burnout.
What causes burnout, how to avoid burnout and some things in your life where we can make some adjustments to help with that, because your business and your life are one and the same. So Jon, what are some things that you commonly see with some clients and other people that we interact with that are an indication that they are burning out?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, so most of the time burnout stems from a couple different things. There were definitely times where we were pushing so hard to hit these like fictitious deadlines that we created that, that added additional pressure to ourselves. That was definitely not the positive pressure kind of thing. We created all these bills, and we created all these things that we were trying to accomplish. The problem was, it was all centered around money and not making money is a bad thing, but when money is the center focus, what can happen very quickly as you will reach this peak or this process of burnout because you’re not fighting for something other than a purpose. Right?
So, most of the time there’s a huge difference. There’s a massive breakdown between when somebody is just fighting to fight for money and when somebody is fighting to fight for purpose or passion or something other than money. There’s nothing… I’m just going to give you guys like, real transparent shit right up front…
There’s nothing wrong with making money. Money. Money is really cool, but it’s what you do with it that matters. And it took me a long time, like literally wrecking shit, time and time again to realize that there’s not this great fulfillment that comes from having a bank account full of a shit ton of money, right?
You’re not going to wake up one day and have like $40,000,000 in a bank account and be super excited that you have $40,000,000 in a bank account. You’ll be excited that the money’s in the bank account because then it affords you the right and the ability to go do other stuff. Right? So, what I want you guys to really get clear about is burnout is a symptom and I think guys miss that all the time; and we’re going to talk about the symptoms of this symptom, right?
But burnout as a whole, as a symptom, that’s like an alarm. Like, it’s an alarm inside of you saying we’re out of balance, right? And we say that term all the time and I’m going to ask you about that, Katie, in just a second. But it’s a symptom that’s saying, ‘dude, we’re out of balance.’ So what do you think in your own words, what does that mean?
Katy Martin:
What does it mean to be out of balance where you feel like you get no sense of release, right? In one facet or another, there’s no sense of release. There’s no end–and it never really ends–but there’s no point where you can actually sit back and decompress, and when you can’t decompress, that’s where everything gets out of balance.
Jon Paramore:
It’s just a buildup of pressure. And there’s pressure and there’s never this release, right? I mean, go ahead. What were you saying?
Katy Martin:
No pressure and anxiety and the whole stage of burnout like that… It progresses over time and over age. Sometimes they’ll look different to somebody when they’re young and making a ton of money and then when somebody that may have a family or somebody that’s further along in the business… burnout can look different in those different stages, because…
Because your purpose of why you’re making the money changes…
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, so. So let me show you something. Burnout can come in several different places, right? It could come from several different stages. Like I’ll give you a perfect example. When you lose focus. So let’s say that you’re a guy who goes to the gym all the time. You’re somebody that just religiously, you’re in the gym, you’re in the gym, you’re in the gym, but there’s no rhyme or reason why you get up and go to the gym every day.
Other than the street singular focus of ‘I want to look good.’ Well eventually that fades, right? It’s cool for a period of time. Like I have all these big muscles. I’m ripped. You know, people give me high fives when they go down the street because I’ve done all this stuff. The problem is there’s no fulfillment in that. Right?
So, likem I have other friends that go to the gym all the time, but they go to the gym for a purpose, right? The purpose is ‘I want to see how far I can push my athleticism.’ Some of these dudes are like 50 years old and they go to the gym religiously and they’re like this, this and this.
Next 90 days I’m going to climb a mountain and this next 90 days I’m going to run and I’m going to do an iron man and this next… like, they’re pushing themselves for a purpose. Right? These dudes don’t burn out. They don’t have that symptom of burnout because the reason why they’re doing it is a singular focus. They’re like, ‘dude, I’m doing it for this.’ But then, behind the scenes, there’s a bigger purpose. Like, ‘I also know that I don’t want to be a 60 year old man who can’t walk,’ right?
‘I want to be able to play with my kids.’ ‘I want to be able to play with my grandkids.’ ‘I want to be able to…’ So there’s this sense of mission, like ‘I’m going to get up and go work out.’ ‘I’m going to get up and push really fucking hard, but I’m building this thing that’s way bigger than me.’ Right? And I think that’s the key.
The symptom of burnout is like the singular loss of focus. Like what? Why? Like, ‘I’ve been doing this for so long. I’ve been’–you know, guys will say this stuff to us–like, ‘I’ve been doing this for so long, I’ve got all this money. I feel detached from my family. I don’t really know my kids. I’m doing it…’ So what’s the reason? Like, ‘why, Katie and John, should I get up and keep going to work?’ Like, ‘I feel like I should just burn this whole thing down. It doesn’t serve me. It’s jacked up.’
Katy Martin:
Oh, that’s totally like an alliance… like a vision and alignment issue. That’s it, right? Everybody has this programming that’s been beat into our head throughout the industrial age of: we work and work and work and hustle and hustle and hustle and then they will retire. Like we will retire at some point. We’re cool. Like, do you want to wait till you’re 65 to live?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, there it is. There. That’s it. Right? So it’s like the symptom of burnout is, especially as it relates to your work, you guys have just forgotten how to live, right? Like the burnout that you’re feeling right now is what we said–that cliche word earlier–balance… that balance is just remembering to live right?
And understanding that the symptom that is burnout is starting to happen because you’ve put so much energy and effort into one thing, which is likely your work. You’ve just abandoned everything else. You can feel that tug in your heart and your soul saying, ‘I need to spend more time with my wife. I need to spend more time with my girlfriend or fiance or whatever, or my husband or whatever. I need to spend more time with my kids. I need to go on vacation.’
‘I need to get in touch with myself. Like I don’t even know me anymore.’ Right? Like, how many times do we hear that? Where people are like, ‘I don’t even know why I do this anymore.’
Like ‘I didn’t even know me anymore. I’m burning out. I’m sick of it. I’m going to burn it all down.’ And here’s the crazy part you guys need to know and understand: I’ve been through that probably six or seven times where I just couldn’t get clear on the purpose or the focus or the reason why we were doing things and I was like, ‘fuck it. I’m out.’
And it’s because I was giving up a piece of my life, my soul. I was away from my kids and away from my family and away from all the stuff that I really wanted to be doing, in exchange for what? Right? So what happens when it gets hard?
Katy Martin:
So when it gets hard and you have no purpose, you just throw your hands up.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, I’ve been doing… and the difference is… listen, we do… There are days and weeks and, you know, times where Katie and I–even in the stuff that we do here, like with the podcast and stuff–all we’re doing is smashing, lift and move and all the companies that we have… there are days where we have to realign ourselves with our purpose because we get to that spot where we feel it. But the difference is now when we feel burnout creeping in, like creeping up on us, we’re like ‘shit, we recognize that.’ We recognize it.
And if you guys can take nothing else away from this podcast today, I want you to start to begin to recognize the symptoms of burnout and then fix that shit before you get divorced, before you begin to sedate into alcohol, pornography, whatever. Whatever it ends up being… before you begin to look for an outlet other than solving the symptom or the problem. So let’s discuss that.
Like, what would you say are some key symptoms that you can identify with when you start to burn out? What are some of those things where you’re just like, ‘oh shit, it’s getting on me.’ The two things that are indicators for me are frustration and anxiety. Like, to where I am dreading doing something or I’m dreading what would I have mapped out.
Katy Martin:
Sometimes I have anxiety because I didn’t map out what I needed to do, and when you get into that cycle of constantly doing and doing and doing just to get things done and it’s not really progressing you forward… That gets you in that constantly.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, you’re exactly right. Like. you’re like… sometimes I have anxiety because I didn’t even map out what I needed to do, but the likelihood you didn’t even map it out because you’re like… the reality is you’re like… ‘I’m burning out. I don’t even want to do this shit. It makes it so tough. So why even create a map? Like what’s the point? What’s the point? Why even create a map?’
Like, ‘I’m so burnt out, I don’t even want to create a map to do this shit because I’m sick of it because it’s not going anywhere.’ And that’s the point at the end of it. That’s the reason why people won’t do the–you guys hear this term all the time–‘do the work.’ That’s why people won’t do the work because in their minds they’ve lost track of the reason, so they won’t do the planning. They won’t do the work. They began to feel the symptoms of burnout and, eventually, before too long, people will just be like, ‘I’m out,’ because there’s only so much of it.
Even as an entrepreneur… even when I had a business that was doing millions and millions and millions of dollars and I couldn’t find fulfillment and purpose and the reason why we were doing it anymore. The only way to get out of that is to burn that shit down like a clean slate.
Katy Martin:
…start over because you always think that this has just turned into something that you don’t want anymore. And in your brain, that’s what you’re thinking is that ‘this monster is manifested. It’s not what I wanted.’ You’re not in a place, you’re not in a mindset to go two steps back to be like, ‘well I fucking caused this, you know, like I’ve gotten to this place.’ So all you want to do is just start over. ‘If I could just clean slate and start over, it’ll all be fine. It’ll all be fine.’ But you get yourself back into that same routine; into that same spot.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. And I used to literally tell people when people would ask me like, ‘tell me about your history in business’ and whatever, and I would literally mask this burnout thing.
I would ask it in a story of… ‘look how many times I failed, but I’ve gotten back up.’ And the reality is if I were telling the truth, the story would go: ‘look how many times I quit…’
‘Look how many times I quit.’ That’s the truth, right? And I quit because I didn’t have this recipe, this thing that we’re telling you guys about today.
I couldn’t identify the symptoms of why I was so enraged, frustrated, angry. You’re talking about like… I would have panic attacks and things like that. Like, I couldn’t figure out what’s the thing that keeps me coming back to this place? And what it boiled down to was there was no purpose.
It was like an experiment. Like, I created a company as an experiment to figure out, ‘oh, I don’t want to do this. I’ll go do it again.’ The problem was, for a period of time, I was recreating the same shit over and over. I was like, ‘well, this one sucks.’
‘I’ll burn it down. But then I’ll go start the same thing just with a different name.’ We go, start it again, build it back up again. Oh, nope. ‘This one sucks. I’ll burn it back down.’ Because the reality is: there was no purpose. And then deeper than that… So let’s just say a couple times there was a deeper rooted purpose, right?
But we just couldn’t figure out how to get to the next level, so we started burning out when, instead of it… and listen, I want you guys to listen really, really carefully to what I’m about to tell you… We got to a stage where we couldn’t figure out the next level. And so instead of seeking help, we were like, ‘this is as far as we can go.’ Right? Let’s burn it down.
Katy Martin:
Yep. So that’s the, that’s the biggest thing: identifying when, like you said, if you’re pretty rooted in a purpose and you get to that place knowing or having the tools to identify the symptoms, that’s the biggest thing. Most people don’t realize that that’s what the symptom is. And then it can be corrected because once you have the tools, then you’re in the space of making a choice. Do I choose to burn it down or do I choose to do this, this and this?
Or do I choose to find help to like… I’m just kinda stuck, and in order to push past this… and, I don’t know what I don’t know. So let’s go figure it out.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. And listen, this is a very real thing… like this is a very real thing. The majority of the contractors in any regard that reach out to us are suffering some form of burnout. They’re like, ‘dude, I’m at my wits end with this shit. I have no idea what to do with this. And I am days away from taking this thing out.’ It’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
So here’s what Katie’s talking about. The identification of the symptom is crucial. Like you guys… and I’m going to give you some right now and then I’m going to have Katie give you some in her perspective… I’ll give you some from my perspective. From my perspective, what burnout felt like to me was this: I’m like–she was talking about this unsettled this and I had no outlet for it. So I would go home and I would vent to my wife and the vent would turn into frustration and then it would be hurtful and then it would be my kids’ fault.
My kids need me too much. Listen. You guys hearing this might think that that’s crazy, but it’s real. We’ve seen it happen over and over and over again where it’s like… and then I would stop working out, which is like the worst thing you can possibly do. I would stop working out. I would start eating like shit.
I would start putting on weight. Then I would go into the self-loathing thing that I would go back into this cycle of shame and guilt and remorse and feeling sorry for myself, and you can’t create shit from that space at all. Nothing.
So you guys, it’s so vital that you see it coming. It’s like a freight train and then you don’t avoid it. You can’t avoid it. You lean into it and figure out what is causing it like… like you’re talking about like… and in the simple thing and, Katie’s pretty good.
Like there’s days that we have those moments and inside of this place where we’re like, ‘fuck man, what are we doing?’ And then the one phrase, the one question that can save it for you in like an instant is you have to ask yourself, ‘what do I want?’
‘What do I want? What am I doing here? What’s the purpose of this?’
Get your mind back to why are you doing the work and take a couple days… It’s not going to kill your business if you’re already to the brink of burnout. It is not going to kill your business to take a couple of days and spend some time with yourself or with a mentor or with someone else that’s been where you are, and ask them questions… soul search… why are you feeling this way and what do you want?
And get yourself back realigned…
Get yourself back locked into the purpose and go spend time with your family.
The balance part is massive. Like, you’ve got to work out. You’ve got to stay engaged. You’ve got to do self investment. You have to be invested in your kids and if you don’t have kids and you’re a single person and you’re feeling this level of burnout, then you’ve got to connect deeply to relationships.
People, go build some friendships, because this whole life that you’re living right now is not all about work. Right? So what are some other symptoms of things that you’ve recognized and other people–like our clients or whatever–where, where, where can you like…
These things start to happen and go, ‘fuck this person starting to burn out.’
Katy Martin:
You can tell a lot of it has to do with sometimes you don’t see the symptom, but you see the method that they’re using to mask the symptom, which is some way of sedating… some way of regressing. So some people do it. And I’m not saying that just because you’re burnout out, you’re going to be an alcoholic or, you know… but it could be sports, could be anything.
It could be like, ‘I’m going to go home and watch tv for hours.’
It could be like when you get into that cycle of ‘I’m drinking a bottle of wine every night,’ or like the… you know… and you talk… where you take somebody who’s just like, ‘I’m sick of doing… I’ll just do it myself, I’ll just do it myself.’
‘I’ll just do it myself.’ Like they pile back on things that they were really getting good at strategically delegating to other people and they take it all and help. That’s probably one of the things that like… you know… just because we teach this stuff doesn’t mean we’re perfect.
No, I think the reason why we’re able to teach it so well is because we… because we do… it does… I mean there’s ways that I identified in you. There’s ways that you identified in me.
And so one of the things is just like where I’m like, ‘just forget it, I’ll do it, I’ll just do it. I’ll just do it. It’ll get done. It may not get done right now, but it’ll get done.” And where it’s like, you know, that’s…
And then that’s just adding to it. Right? So like, you’re on the verge of burnout because you can’t figure something out and you’re frustrated. It’s just like, ‘forget it, I’ll just do it.’
‘I’ll just handle it myself. It is what it is.’ But that’s how I typically… I didn’t… I see that in other people, like the one thing that I see in myself now that I can recognize it… I can identify in other people where I wasn’t able to do that before.
Jon Paramore:
And I think one of the keys for those of you who are leaders, owners, on the front side of things… when you start to see other people in your organization go through the symptoms of burnout exactly like you were just talking about. You have to confront them.
Like, you’ve got to go to them and say, ‘hey, we’ve noticed…’ and I think I’ve missed the boat a lot when I was in charge and an owner and whatever.
And sometimes you want to chalk this up to somebody being lazy, right? You want to chalk it up and say, ‘well, this person is just choosing not to do the work anymore’… whatever, but the best owners and leaders walk up to people from a place of empathy and say, ‘hey man, I’ve noticed like this isn’t you, like what’s going on?’
Right? And it’s very normal for employees to experience burnout. They just lost the sense of purpose behind ‘why are they doing the work,’ right?
And if you can get to come alongside them and get them refocused back to doing the stuff that they need to do as well… That’s a culture. We talked about this in the last podcast. That’s a culture and motivational builder because then they actually see that you care. Right? Right.
So I think as it relates to burnout, one other thing that I really want you guys to know and understand is just not about work. Like I’ve seen people burn out on life, like, they’re just sick of paying bills and,,, you know… like shit, stacking up against them and feeling like things are just not working out in their favor and nine times out of 10 it’s just because they’ve lost the vision of, ‘where is all this leading?’
Am I gonna… I mean I’ll just be transparent with you guys again…
My wife feels that sometimes… she’s like, ‘oh,’–and I realize we don’t have 37 kids and whatever–but there are days where she loses herself and she’s like, ‘I feel like my responsibility is to kids and doing laundry and doing dishes and keeping the house clean.’
She’s like ‘my life doesn’t really add up to a whole lot of shit. Like it’s just the routine of do these things and I feel like I should be doing something else.’ She’s burning out and it’s my responsibility as her husband to go, ‘what do you want? What do you want?’ And most of the time it’s like… there’s some venting and then it’s followed by, ‘I just need a couple of days a month to go and hang out with other people’ and there’s nothing wrong with that.
She needs that sense of belonging, like, she needs that sense of feeling like ‘I’m a person too,’ right? Like, ‘let me go live a life. Like, you’re gone all day. It’s sometimes the conversations are relatively humorous, but it’s like you’re gone all day playing work and you know, whatever. Like what are you, doing?’
You know, that whole thing. But it’s like… I get it, right? Like, okay, I’ll come home and watch the kids and hang out with the kids and whatever. And you can go be stupid with your friends, you know, that’s fine.
I’m not calling my wife stupid, by the way. I’m just saying she can be stupid.
So she’s going to hear this, by the way. Oh my God, she’s going to hear it. And she’s gonna throw things at you and you’re going to die. And that’s it.
Katy Martin:
No, but we’ve talked to people a lot of times. It’s about an outlet, you know… you’re working until you know you’re working to live, not living to work, which is kind of a cliche thing to say.
But the whole ‘work life balance’ thing stemmed. I was reading a book and that became more of a trendy term… like in the eighties when women entered the workforce and you had… you know, in larger numbers… and you had both parents, you know, and trying to balance with kids and family life and whatnot and that’s… you know, it’s transitioned now to where there’s not as many people having large families and kids, but it’s still about investing in you, investing in you and keeping you in alignment.
There were a lot of entrepreneurs that we knew that had families and have kids and it’s like I just need a break from all of it for a day. That’s it, you know, a weekend where I just can go, maybe stay at a hotel and, you know, work on some things, work on some projects and, and you know, if that’s something that really benefits them, there’s nothing wrong with that…
Something that simple can really help get you out of that…
Jon Paramore:
That’s it. I mean honestly–and I’ll just give you guys for whatever it’s worth, kind of my routine to do what I can for the most part–I mean, I still run into it a little bit, but to avoid burnout for the most part… I wrote a pretty simple routine. I mean, in the mornings I wake up pretty much the same time I’m working out. I’m also investing by… We read, you and I both read, you know… I’m journaling… I’ll also carve out time every night to spend with my wife and kids. So I’m plugged in and present in that environment.
But, I also like… we were talking to a lot of the people that we work with and some of our clients and we were like, you know, we take time off from time to time and sometimes you know, I’ll be trying to get ahold of you and you’re checked out and you–which is cool, you’re hanging out with your family and stuff like that–and there’s times where your people are trying to get ahold of me and I’m checked out and I’m locked in with my fee.
Like, you have to give yourself space to recover. And I used to be that guy that was like… I would almost feel guilty if I wasn’t working or grinding or pushing to that next thing.
It’s like, well I should be doing something. And that’s it. Yeah. And so, but it’s just like anything else, right? Like if you just go back to working out you… if you work out seven days a week, 24 slash seven, all… I mean, like, you’re just always in it, right? And you don’t ever give yourself some downtime to recover the you’re at some point in time your body’s going to burn out. Whether you like it or not, your body’s not going to show up.
It’s going to respond differently. It’s going to start responding differently. It’s not going to feel good. You might get sick, you know, there’s all kinds of things that go with it.
It’s no different with your mind mentally, emotionally. You’ve got to shut down every now and then. You’ve got to give yourself some space to really log back in to who you are as a person and make sure that what you’re working to create is in alignment with who you are as a person.
I think that’s vital and incredibly important and something that most people skip over and just don’t do.
So I’ll kind of just recap it and bring it back around for you and really get you guys, you know, locked back in to the point like, if you are feeling any of these symptoms and maybe there’s not an outlet for you to go to, to talk to someone and get help.
Like I’ve been to the spot feeling burnout, sitting behind the desk where I really felt like I was all alone and there was nowhere to go and I know what that feels like and you guys have an option.
Like you can reach out to us. You can reach out to other people in the market. You don’t have to remain in this place where you constantly feel like you’re in this struggle, fighting to do something better at work or whatever.
Like when you’re burning out, don’t burn the thing to the ground. Don’t get yourself into a position where you’re going to end up divorced and your kids are going to resent you and you’re going to get to a spot at some point in your life where you’ve built this great business but you look back and you’re like, ‘I have no life…’
Like, don’t get yourself to that spot. Right? So if that’s you and you’re feeling this level of burnout and you really just need an outlet for somewhere to go or to talk to or whatever, you can reach out to us.
Like, we’re happy to walk you through the steps of how to get back to the other side where you’re not feeling so burned out where you actually feel like you have a life where you’re feeling good about yourself and all that good stuff.
So what are some things that you could say even to them to kind of wrap things up about the feeling of burnout some times when you felt like… how do you tend to recover… and things that you do for yourself just to… you know… like, free yourself from the burnout?
Katy Martin:
Yeah. My biggest thing now is I have to completely detach from everything that I’m doing and have some time where I can just kind of clean it all up to a degree. The hardest thing is… talk to somebody, ask somebody… say, ‘hey, I’m really frigging frustrated, like this has nothing to do with you, but can you just hear me talk,’ you know, and when you’re a business owner it can be really lonely and you think that you have to be able to handle all of that stuff by yourself because maybe you have a decent size team.
Maybe, you know, some of your family works for you, where you feel as if ‘I can’t appear as if I’m ready to throw my hands up and throw the towel in and walk away from this.’
So, you know, there’s people out there who feel this all the time, we all feel it. We feel it. Yep. So you’re not alone, you know… but even though you’re like, ‘other people have to feel this way,’ you might think that through your head, but you still feel completely isolated.
So sometimes you either have… it’s one of two things. You either have to find somebody that can relate, that you can just be like, ‘I just need to unleash all of this and dump it to where somebody else can hear me.’ And sometimes that’s all it takes. Right? All it takes is, ‘hey, I just need to…’
‘This is just how I’m feeling.’ I know we did this the other day. You’re just like, ‘hey man, this has nothing to do with you. But’, and I’m like… okay, cool. And I’m like, so what do you want?
So, and that’s typically the two different ways that I deal with it. So it’s like, ‘here’s everything I’m feeling right now and I just needed to get that out there so then I can realign it or I have to completely detach and just clean up and figure some things out.’
So listen, we’re super grateful for those of you who joined us today, I’m gotta wrap this up by simply saying if you’re one of these people and you’re feeling this high level of burnout and you’ve kind of lost that loving feeling, you’ve lost that buddha love…
Sorry I got a little cheesy on you for a second, but if you’re one of those people feeling burnout and you don’t really know what to do with it or where to go or how to get yourself back on track, please reach out to us. I’ll give you my personal email. It’s [email protected]. Send me an email, I’ll respond to you.
You guys can follow us on facebook. You can visit us at our website, at rhinobranded.com. You can also go to thesmashco.com. They’ve kind of dumped into the same place at this point. Instagram, facebook, whatever you need. Find us. We’re out there. We’re easily accessible. Reach out to one of us and just tell us how you’re feeling and we will by all means do what we can to get you back on track. So listen, we greatly appreciate you guys joining us today, and from all of us at The Liberated Contractor Podcast. Until next time, take care.
Thanks for listening to today’s episode of The Liberated Contractor. And please remember to subscribe and leave a review. Want us to cover a topic on air? Needs some help, and want to know how to find your resolution? Send us an email at [email protected] and we’ll send you some gear if we use your question on here. This has been The Liberated Contractor Podcast.
