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Jon Paramore:
What’s up everyone? This is Jon Paramore, and you’re listening to The Liberated Contractor Podcast.
Jon Paramore:
I’ve spent the last 17 years growing and scaling contracting companies all across the United States. Now, I’m on a mission to liberate as many contractors as I can by helping them break free from the chaos, by helping them build a company that supports the life they want to live.
Join me as I explain how some simple shifts and strategies are freeing contractors and helping them make more money then they ever have before. Sit back and relax, and welcome to The Liberated Contractor Podcast.
Jon Paramore:
Hey, what’s up everybody? Welcome to the Liberated Contractor podcast. This is Jon Paramore sitting here with Katy Martin…
Katy Martin:
Hello. Hello.
Jon Paramore:
How’s it going?
Katy Martin:
It’s great.
Jon Paramore:
Listen, we’re going to get into a very hot, nasty topic today. We notice it in a lot of markets, so while it definitely applies to the contracting market, it’s in a lot of other markets that we’re doing work in and we’re going to talk about it today.
The topic that we’re going through today is how to be an influencer, how to influence a market versus infecting a market.
These are very, very different things and we’re going to talk about the situations, and we’re going to talk about the scenarios, and we’re going to talk about leaning more into the influencing side versus the infecting side. Let’s just jump right in…
In your opinion, like we always start out right? We like to get opinions. We like to get … we like clarity, what is the difference between being an influencer and being an infector?
Katy Martin:
I mean, if you really think about it in simplistic terms of just the words themselves, one is very positive, one is very negative. How do you want to show up to consumers, to clients?
I mean, we can talk about it in a variety of areas, but how do you want to either potentially one’s gonna be more of an attractor and one is going to be more of a deflector.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, so one thing I love about social media is it’s kind of like math…
The thing that I really, really like and enjoy is that you can try to fake it in social media just like you can try to fudge numbers in math for a while, but eventually what ends up happening is you end up getting the truth because who you are in your core, and in your nature, and in your heart, and in your soul, just like whatever the numbers are that you’re trying to add up.
Eventually they’re going to produce a certain result and you can kind of fudge that for a little while, but eventually the truth comes out.
If you pay attention to the trends that we’re going to discuss today, you’re gonna, you’re gonna notice very, very quickly the difference between the people that you follow on social media, the people that you come in contact with.
I don’t care if it’s target, Walmart, getting your car cleaned, whatever the case may be.
Jon Paramore:
You’re going to dramatically understand and know the differences between somebody who wants to impact and influence a market and somebody who wants to infect a market. I mean, we’ve seen it. You’ve seen the difference that people just take some of the more influential people.
Let’s start with the positive today. Sometimes we dive right in to the shitty side of it, but let’s start with the positive today.
Think of some people that are incredibly, like you go onto social media, they give you this feel good feeling like you want to connect to these people.
You want to follow more of their posts. What are some of the common trends that you typically see or show up where you’re just like, man, this guy’s engaging or this person’s engaging. I love what they put out, what do you typically see?
Katy Martin:
They’re always focusing on whatever value it is that they bring. It’s focused solely on the value and how can they help? It’s helpful like even people that maybe they’re not … you can even see it by people who contribute to a group or contribute to a page.
They don’t necessarily have to be the top influencer, but even people that follow someone like that influence people within that network. They’re the ones that are offering some sort of assistance or some sort of value as opposed to not.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah.
Katy Martin:
Honestly, it’s that simple.
Jon Paramore:
Talk about their vibe, like talk about that vibe. You and I know, so I don’t like to throw out names and call people out, but in this instance I’ll give people props. You and I know a couple of guys that we’ve both been coached and mentored by a guy named Setema Gali, right?
Katy Martin:
Oh, yeah.
Jon Paramore:
Both of us know Setema, and the messages when you follow Setema. Setema was a former NFL star. He played for the New England patriots.
He won a Super Bowl and then over time he shares his story all the time…
He lost everything and he had to go knock doors, and he worked for Vivant for a while, and then he was like, “I want to impact people, I want to be an influencer, I want to make a positive impact on people’s lives.”
He eventually became a coach and a consultant. You and I both have mentored under him, right? What … give me like some of the stuff that makes him so attractive when you just pay attention to his content on social media.
Katy Martin:
Well, his content’s great. Like it’s, I mean-
Jon Paramore:
Super positive.
Katy Martin:
Very positive all the time. I mean, there’s lessons in there, but he’s never that person. The way that he influences people is just by sharing the positivity, and reinforcing, and encouragement as opposed to saying, “This is the …”
Well like we see with other people where as he doesn’t say things like, “This is how you should do it. This is the right way and fuck you if you don’t do it.” That is never like … that would never be anything-
Jon Paramore:
We’re going to get into that.
Katy Martin:
-that that guy would ever say, you know?
Jon Paramore:
Right, but out of the same side though he’s also like, he can say something and not necessarily … It’s truthful. It doesn’t necessarily have that negative connotation, but it’s truthful and it could very well be him calling you out and him saying, “I see something where there’s holes,” but he’s not doing it to damage you. Right?
Katy Martin:
Right.
Jon Paramore:
He’s not coming at you going, I didn’t earn the right. I remember one big thing, and this is huge. For you guys who are listening, write this down. I remember one of the biggest things that he told you and I, is he said, “You never make a correction to a person who hasn’t given you permission.”
Katy Martin:
Right.
Jon Paramore:
Right. Do you remember that? He’s like, “You don’t go into a marketplace and start blasting the marketplace with what they’re doing wrong because the marketplace has not given you permission.
You also don’t go into people’s posts, and feeds, and whatever and start hammering those people because those people did not give you permission.
So whatever you say in that instance is only going to negatively impact them.” Listen to me. Listen to what I’m saying. Those of you guys who are listening.
It’s gonna totally negatively impact them and it’s going to totally negatively impact your market and that’s the part that so many people forget and don’t understand is Setema will put words of love out that are sometimes difficult for people to swallow, but he’s not doing it to damage you, right?
He’s doing it to make sure out of a place of love, like I see … he might even say it’s a trend, right? Kind of like what we’re doing on the podcast today.
Jon Paramore:
I’ve noticed a trend that breaks my heart. I really wish that it was different, but here’s the reality and he’ll drop like a truth bomb into it. Right? It’s totally from a place of love, and understanding, and empathy, and all that stuff, right?
Katy Martin:
Right.
Jon Paramore:
That’s just one example. Katy and I know a lot of people that understand the power of influence, right? Their mission and goal is not to, they don’t operate from this place of inferiority. They’re not afraid of other people in the market.
They don’t need to go in and tear people down because they operate from a place of, like he always said to us, ‘I operate from a place of power.”
What do you think, what do you see as the difference between the people operating from that place of power, and the people that even though they’re trying to hide it, they can’t hide it, that are operating from this scared, insecure type of, like overly, almost hyper emotional type of feel?
Katy Martin:
Ask me that again. The biggest difference?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, so what’s the …
Katy Martin:
Well, it has … at the end of the day they’re masking something.
Jon Paramore:
Yes.
Katy Martin:
It’s almost like the one who yells the loudest is kind of like, “Hey, look over here,” as opposed to what’s going on over here. With Setema, again, he is very powerful in how he delivered that.
One thing I wanted to touch on that you said, and you kept talking when you don’t have permission and you don’t, and you throw something out there that is very … it could appear condescending, it could appear incredibly negative.
Not only is that a negative impact, you’re not influencing that person that you’re speaking to, but it’s a negative impact on how everyone else sees you.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. Yeah. Just so you guys listening and I’m gonna … we’re gonna like draw a circle and apply this to a lot of different things because I think that’s really, really important is you understand that it’s just not about the content that you put into social media. This is direct interaction stuff here.
Katy Martin:
This is something that’s applicable in the everyday functions of your business.
Jon Paramore:
Yes.
Katy Martin:
We talked about it earlier, so just, I mean, I’ll start off with one example where we’re all in contracting, right? All of us have had that instance where somebody has called the company and they asked somebody to come out and look at something that’s not right.
Maybe they have a roof leak, maybe they have some fascia that’s falling off the house, you know, anything, but they’re like, “Hey, I had the contractor come out and they did X, Y, and Z about a year ago.” Do you want to be the person that’s like, “Well, let me see if I can fix this issue,” or do you want to be the person that goes, “Yeah man, he really didn’t know what he was doing.”
Jon Paramore:
Right. Yeah, and so that’s a perfect example. I’m going to describe some things here, but like what she’s bringing up, that’s a perfect example where you have a choice. Let’s apply it to the contracting world.
You have a choice when you show up and let’s say that some of you guys get up on a roof and you notice that the workmanship that’s been done on the roof is like catastrophic, like it’s just terrible, right?
I understand because I was in this, I’ve been in this space for so long, for 18 years and I know what it feels like to get on a roof and look at it and see shoddy workmanship, but you’re given a choice in that space, and really pay attention to this.
You can get off that ladder and you can tell the homeowner, or the homeowner or business owner. We saw a business owner do this last week and it was done well, so here’s the difference.
Jon Paramore:
You can tell a homeowner or a business owner how terrible the contractor was, how bad work they did. You’ve never seen anything like this in your life, so on, and so on, and and just totally rip that contractor a new asshole.
Like just, “I don’t know who it was. This is what they did. They must have had a blind roofer on the roof or you know, I don’t know, a guy with no hands,” or you know, something like that. Right? You can be that guy or you have a choice to get off the roof and say, “I’m going to show you something.
…Here’s some documentation where I noticed some poor installation work. I don’t really know what the circumstances were that led up to this, nor do I want to talk bad about the people that did this work. I just want to bring this to your attention.”
Jon Paramore:
Do you guys see how much, and hear how much more powerful that is because you’re not going to the homeowner trying to try to take out the person before you. Which, listen, I’ve been there.
It’s likely that that person did a terrible job and while you’re on the roof, you’re like, what the fuck happened here? Like your mind is just like, I can’t even believe that somebody left this here, but when you get off the roof your job is to be professional. Influence that person, impact that person.
Katy Martin:
How do you do that?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, so that’s that conversation of, “I noticed some things wrong, but here’s the really great part, we can fix this, right? And we don’t have to take out the person that did it before. We don’t have to hunt them down and go, well, do you have their paperwork? Oh, I know these people. They’re turds.
Every time they get on a roof, they do this, and they do this, and they did this.” You and that space, operating from that space. You become an infector, like you’re infecting that space. You’re becoming that guy that’s operating like you can’t be so great, like in your own space you can’t be the expert, you’re trying to make everybody else look bad.
Right? Now you’ve become that, that infect her versus the influencer. That’s the big difference. Right? I’m gonna again, we’re going to talk about how it really shows up in a lot of other areas. But in particularly, I want to describe to you real quick the difference.
Jon Paramore:
Okay. So we talked about Setema and Setema is the influencer, and how he shows up and, and that’s, you know, honestly when we put content out, that’s how we do our best to show up that way too.
We’re human and there’s definitely been times when Katie and I have taken to social media and just kind of been frustrated and been like, “Holy shit, we can’t believe people do this,” but we’ve also learned from our own trial and error and from the coaches and mentors that are around us that go, “You can’t do this,” right?
You guys haven’t earned the right to go into the market and tell them how shitty things are. Even if you can see it that’s not influential conversation, that’s you trying to infect a market. You can’t do that.
The difference is on the other side, what an infector looks like is they will look for, and we say this because we know because we’ve actually talked to several people, even ourselves, we’ve had conversations with our mentors that are like, “You guys are infecting,” before we learned what this meant.
They tend to look for the bad shit going on…
Jon Paramore:
Then instead of just trying to maybe non publicly direct message someone and say, “Hey, I noticed a trend here. Just wanted to bring this to your attention.” They make it like their sole purpose and mission to like publicly correct or publicly call someone out and say … it doesn’t matter if, listen, and it doesn’t matter if it’s subtle or if it’s blatant, it’s all the same.
Right? What they don’t understand is that because they’re not influencing, because they’re not correcting with love, and care, and kindness, and things like that, they’re causing an infection.
Especially if they are like a perceived leader in the market and they impact and they cause an infection, what it does to other people in the market is, it draws out more infections.
That’s the thing about an infection…
Katy Martin:
Yeah. What happens to an infection that’s not contained?
Jon Paramore:
That’s right.
Katy Martin:
It spreads.
Jon Paramore:
That’s the thing about an infection is if you notice it and you watch it in these groups, these infection type of people infect each other and move in pods. Just like a regular infection in your body, nobody’s corrected it, it doesn’t go corrected, but everybody sees it.
Everybody sees it, and it gets worse, and it gets worse, and it gets worse and it’s just kind of tolerated.
Meanwhile, the people who are more influenced people sit back and don’t say a word because they realize what those people are doing are infecting their own business. They’re infecting their own life and they probably don’t even don’t even know it.
The one thing that I really like is, and that I’ve learned over the years is that the influencers hang out with the influencers. The infections hang out with other infections. They’ll spread whatever it is that they want to spread in accordance to their own agenda.
Jon Paramore:
That’s how it happens. It doesn’t matter if you’re in contracting, it doesn’t matter if you’re in real estate, it doesn’t matter if you’re in what field. You guys name it, I don’t care what it is. If you’ve watched it and you can watch it in social groups.
The infections hanging out with the infections, the people who are really trying to impact and invest, they’re going to hang out with one another.
When you see somebody who you know is an infector, like they’re causing infection, how does that … as someone who now like we’re pretty conscious of the difference between the two.
How does that make someone like you feel when you see that person would … like, I mean just in general, how does it make you feel?
Katy Martin:
I mean, we know how to handle it differently-
Jon Paramore:
Sure.
Katy Martin:
-where it’s almost like you almost want to reach out to them to say, “Hey, would you like some feedback?” In reality it’s like I’d rather not associate with them.
Jon Paramore:
Right.
Katy Martin:
I’d rather keep my distance.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, because you don’t want to get that on you.
Katy Martin:
Yeah. You still have that initial instinct. If you’re another infector, and this is from … just perspective from the other side, you tend to kind of engage with it.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, it’s like drama.
Katy Martin:
Yeah, it’s kind of dramatic, but when you get to a place of if you know you’re an influencer and you see the infection, you tend to steer clear of it a little bit.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. One thing that’s really powerful that I want to offer to you guys is how do you diffuse infection? How do you diffuse infection? I’ll use a scenario. I make a lot of analogies to kids, right? I think some adults behave like just grown up kids, but even my kids, right, sometimes they get that spot of infection where my oldest daughter will walk up, she’ll see my youngest daughter do something and she tries to play parent.
That’s not her being loving and influential…
She sees something she doesn’t like and she instantly calls her out and tries to make my youngest daughter the bad guy so that she could get some brownie points with us. What she doesn’t understand is that that behavior actually makes it worse because she’s calling her out.
Slowly but surely, and I’m no perfect parent, just prefacing, I don’t do this well all the time, but slowly but surely I’m consciously noticing that pattern and we’ve been working with her to then go to her and say, you know, more of a power powerful conversation like, “I don’t know that you’re aware of what’s going on or I don’t know if I can be of assistance, or help, or whatever.”
Jon Paramore:
There’s a loving and more kind of approach to it that can be done, right? When you see, like let’s just take for instance we’ve seen it a couple times and some of these groups one of these infectors goes in and tries to play God and sort things out in a group and call people out, or whatever the case may be.
If you’re that person that gets infected or is being infected by an infector, what I would recommend is you counteract that stuff with a whole bunch of questions. I think one of the most powerful questions that I have noticed that people tend to drop is what do you hope to gain from this? Like what?
Ultimately somebody asked me that at one point in time and they’re like … I was having a moment and they’re like, “Ultimately what do you hope to gain from this?” There’s never really a, “Oh, well I hope that by me telling this person they’re an asshole in public they change.”
Katy Martin:
Yeah, because that works.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah. Because I mean, how often does that … like try to do that … try to walk up to a perfect stranger that you see in a grocery store or something like handling the produce inappropriately or whatever, and you decided to walk up and be parent.
Katy Martin:
Yeah, it directly correlates with power versus force.
Jon Paramore:
Yes. Yes, yes, yes. For those of you who have not read that book, it’s a fantastic book. Power versus force, right? It is a control mechanism where somebody in their mind perceives to have more power than they actually do.
The problem is when they show up as an infector, they actually are telling the entire market, I have no power because I’m trying to use force and trying to make a shift, but I have no influence, so it’s the only card that I have to play, so I’m going to try this. Right.
Jon Paramore:
The really crazy part to me is especially when somebody identifies themself as a leader and then they show up from this place where they’re trying to, I think, ultimately if I’m just being candid and real, I think some of these people really do have good hearts and I think they have good intentions.
They just aren’t sure about a better way to correct it, a better way to handle it, a way to be an influencer, what that means. Right? Because they’ve shown up as an infector for so long and nobody’s really taken them to task from an influencer standpoint, the behavior pattern just continues. Right?
Jon Paramore:
Let’s break it down by like trade. From a contractor standpoint, how do you see contractor show up as an infectors first? How do you see them as they interact with a homeowner, or they go into a neighborhood, whatever. How do you see them infect?
Katy Martin:
I mean that’s easy. I mean, because there’s times we’ve had to correct that with salespeople. I mean, just think about a scenario just … and I’ll break this down because it makes sense again to … for the day to day part of it.
Think about when a hailstorm hits and you have several contractors in an area working and let’s say there’s a group of companies that are all out door knocking and you’re the fifth person who knocks on that door and the homeowner, maybe you just have a homeowner that’s like, “Hey, man. I appreciate you stopping by. You’re the fifth guy. How do I know who to choose?” You immediately go into, “Well, who came by? Oh, that guy? Those people will rip you off. That guy’s a dip shit.”
I mean, that stuff happens. We’ve seen it in real time…
Jon Paramore:
Of course.
Katy Martin:
The analogy that we used when it comes to workmanship. I mean, and it doesn’t have to be roofing contractor. We’ve had interior guys come in and be like, “That’s the worst fucking drywall I’ve ever seen. I mean, that guy …” It’s like, dude, I don’t need to hear that today. I don’t need to hear that today.
If that’s the attitude you’re going to have, I’ll probably just hire somebody else…
I just need somebody to fix it. I get it, you know, and we’re … and that’s … can you imagine walking into a homeowner’s house saying things … saying something like that and it’s like, oh, I’ve actually had that happen to me. Now that I think about it, I had my flooring installed.
Okay. So I’m pretty handy, obviously. Been in construction. I can do quite a bit around my house.
Katy Martin:
I installed ceramic tile in my entryway at my front door when we put in new flooring in the living room. My husband put in the hardwood floor, did a great job. I hired somebody to put the ceramic tile in my kitchen. I wanted a very specific pattern.
It was above my pay grade…
I paid somebody to do it. I’m there during the day, during the install and the two guys are in the kitchen laying the tile and I hear the one guy said … He was asking questions about flooring.
Katy Martin:
He goes, “Well, go look at the entryway. There’s tile in the entryway.” They were wanting to compare something and the guy came in and he laughed, and he kinda laughed and snickered and he’s like, “Well, there’s two different size grout lines and blah blah, blah.”
And I’m like, I just let it … I just didn’t say anything.
He went in there and I heard them discuss it and kind of laugh and I’m like, “Oh yeah, I did that.” The person who’s going to be handing you $5,000 for this floor, like, thank, thank, thank you. Thank you for that.
But that’s the kind of stuff where I’m like, cool, I loved the sales guy who sold me that floor. Do you think I’m going to buy from them again because of that? No, I mean just something little like that, but that’s the same thing.
Katy Martin:
That probably breeds within that organization. Sorry if that went on a tangent, but I thought that was kind of a good example that’s applicable to construction, but it happens in the field with salespeople.
Jon Paramore:
Yeah.
Katy Martin:
It can happen in the office. You don’t have to tear someone down if you’re consistently giving value. When you show up, when a sales rep shows up and they’re like, “This is what happened, this is how I can help you,” focus on what does that homeowner need and how can you help them get their house back?
Jon Paramore:
That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.
Katy Martin:
Just don’t be so mad.
Jon Paramore:
That’s it. I mean, the influencing part is so much less painful and gives you so much more of the result that you really desire that the infection part steals from you. I guess at this point, you know, I’m 40 years old. I think it’s … I’m to the point where it’s almost sad to watch people repeat the mistakes that I’ve done in my past and almost watch them cause themselves…
…I mean, some of these people don’t even understand and realize how much money they’re costing themselves when they do something like that. I mean, and they don’t understand, you know, I’m certainly not going to claim or say by any means that I’m some giant influencer, nor do I want that title.
Jon Paramore:
You know, I have to say as a man and a leader of my house, and as a man and a leader of my business, and as a man and trying to show up as a leader in an industry.
I’m definitely not going to self proclaim that but I am going to say I think it’s definitely my responsibility to show up in a certain way that if my wife, or my kids, or someone else that I don’t know is watching me interact in social media, or watching me interact with a client, or watching me interact with prospective client, or even somebody, a stranger on the street.
I don’t ever want to be that in that situation where I pass up a value opportunity in exchange to dress someone down.
Katy Martin:
Right.
Jon Paramore:
I think that’s the biggest thing for me is … and, you know, just so you guys know where we stand as an organization and where I think it’s really powerful for a lot of you to stand as an organization is associating with the factors can take over, like we talked about, culture.
It could take over your culture. I mean it really can and it can take over-
Katy Martin:
What happens-
Jon Paramore:
Yeah.
Katy Martin:
I’m sorry to interrupt, but then what happens when it does take over your culture and if you are a fairly large organization within a particular market you’re infecting the market.
Jon Paramore:
You’re infecting the market.
Katy Martin:
You’re infecting the market. I mean we know of companies that have done things like that in St. Louis where, I mean, we’re all … we’ve all come from contracting and we talk to contractors.
That’s what this podcast is about. If you stop for a minute and thought about how you’re impacting your market and your industry, you can change little things that can make a big difference.
If your company is getting to the place where infections taking over your culture, you’re impacting a market and an industry. What can you do to do nothing but provide more value?
Jon Paramore:
Yeah, that’s it. That’s it. Again, just to kind of wrap things up and bring things home for you guys. By no means am I perfect, by no means are we perfect. There are definitely times where we’ve sold something or we’ve done something in the market and it’s had a negative impact, and it’s been brought to our attention, and we own that stuff.
That’s not a place for me to deflect…
It’s a place for somebody lovingly who does it the right way, comes to me, sends me a message, “Hey, are you open to having a conversation about this?” My reaction was, “Sure,” because I respected the person that brought it to my attention and they said lovingly, and correctly, and appropriately from a very influential standpoint…
“Hey, man. When you show up like this and when you do these things, I’ve heard from other people and I watched it and saw it with my own two eyes, it negatively impacted what you’re doing and I, and we think what you’re doing is great. We think the value that you’re trying to give is great, but we don’t want people to perceive you as this because we know you’re not.” Right?
Jon Paramore:
That’s appropriate. I think that’s … I’m fine with that, but I’ve also had other people and both Katie and I have tried to call us out in the middle of a public setting and to be quite frank, I mean we don’t respond well to that. Neither would anybody else. I mean it’s inappropriate, right?
You don’t need to … and for those of you who have had that happen, you don’t need to justify yourself to anybody. You don’t have to, especially in a situation where somebody acts as an infector and not an influencer. Right? Very different things. Again, we really appreciate you guys.
We went a little long today, but we appreciate you guys being with us, being part of this podcast. We do our best to bring you guys value.
We do our best to pay attention to current trends that are going on in the marketplace. We talk to you guys. We listen to what you’re saying. We put this stuff out there for you guys to get ahold of. We really, really hope that it impacts you guys, that had influences you to make really great decisions, and do some really great things.
Jon Paramore:
Listen, if you want to get ahold of us, if you have questions for us, if you have information for us, whatever. You can reach us at [email protected]. You can also visit us on our website at Rhinobranded.com, and you can also get at us at Facebook, and Instagram, and YouTube, and all those fun things. If you need the links a shoot us a message or whatever and we’ll get them out to you. This has been another episode of the Liberated Contractor. Until we get back together next time, thank you guys and take care.
Jon Paramore:
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